The Rev. Jo-Ann Drake

On October 1, 1978, the Rev. Jo-Ann Drake became the first woman from the Diocese of Rhode Island to be ordained a priest. She was ordained by Bishop Frederick H. Belden at St. Peter’s Church in Glenside, Pennsylvania where she was serving as a deacon. She served churches in Pennsylvania and New Hampshire before returning to Rhode Island in 1993 as rector of Church of the Redeemer in Providence. She was interviewed by the Rev. Mary Frances Schjonberg.

Question: Let’s start back at the beginning of this story. At the beginning of this anniversary, 50 years. Where were you 50 years ago when the Philadelphia 11 were ordained, and how did you hear about it?

Answer: Actually, I had just graduated from Rhode Island College in June, and I was entering the Episcopal Divinity School that fall. I was in the same class with [retired Diocese of Rhode Island bishop] Gerry Wolf. In fact, I mean, we’ve been friends. We’ve been friends since we entered seminary. So, obviously they were ordained that summer. I don’t remember the exact month, but obviously it was the talk of the Episcopal diocese in Rhode Island. And I’m trying, I hate to say this, but I’m very, very sketchy on the details of who, what, where, when and why, but obviously it was on my radar screen because I was about to enter seminary.

Question: And what was your reaction to it? Had you heard rumblings that this was going to happen or?

Answer: I honestly and truly don’t remember.

Question: Okay, that’s fine.

Answer: Yeah, because I was in Rhode Island. Gerry was down in Pennsylvania, newly ordained a deacon. So no, no, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. See, I’m mixing my timeline. She would’ve been on her way to seminary, too, but yeah. Honestly, 50 years ago you said, right?

Question: Yes, 50 years ago. July 29th, 1974.

Answer: Fifty years ago. Yeah. I have trouble remembering what I have for breakfast. But I honestly, truly don’t remember. I would hazard a guess and say, obviously it was on my radar screen, obviously. It was something I supported and embraced. I mean, I felt God’s hand was in it, but I was probably so absorbed with needing to move, find financial resources, complete any preliminary things I needed to do before I started seminary. So, I assume I was probably pretty absorbed just in the practicalities of life at that point. And that’s the best I can remember. I’m sorry.

Question: No, no worries. What was your goal when you entered EDS? Were you hoping for ordination or what was your goal?

Answer: I told myself that if I was going to embark on this journey, that I had to keep an open mind and be willing to do whatever it took. And this is a key part for me: to get to the life God desired for me. And I honestly and truly believe that we can do and be anything we want, but God kind of has a best vision for our lives, and that if we try to discern that vision and move toward it, unless the world beats you down too much, you’ll end up in the place God desires for you, the place where you feel like you belong. So, I said to myself, and you have to remember that it was the previous fall, I was in the process of applying for early acceptance to what was then ETS [Episcopal Theological School] when General Convention voted down the ordination of women. That would’ve been the fall of ’73.

Question: Yes. And it’s ironic that this year’s General Convention in a couple of weeks is back in Louisville, Kentucky, where that vote happened.

Answer: Yeah. And what goes around comes around, right?

Question: Exactly.

Answer: So, I mean, not quite literally, but I had my application to ETS in one hand and the rejection of General Convention in the other, but I said, “No, Jo-Ann, you feel this is the right path. Wherever it ends up, the next step for you is to go to seminary.” So, I continued, obviously, to apply and I always say I was accepted at ETS and entered the EDS, but that’s a whole other story. [Episcopal Divinity School, then located in Cambridge, was created in 1974 from the merger of the Episcopal Theological School and Philadelphia Divinity School.]

Question: Now, had you spoken to the bishop at this point about what you were going to do?

Answer: Yes, actually, there were two people who were formative for me at the time. One was [the Rev.] David Ames, who was my college chaplain, who first suggested I might want to consider visiting ETS and study theology, because he knew my commitment to, well, at that point, my baptismal covenant. And the other person was [the Rev.] Stuart Kent, who was then the rector of St. Peter and Andrew, which became my ordaining parish. They’re the parish that sponsored me. And I’m sorry, I already forgot the question.

Question: No, no, no. My question was whether you had spoken to the bishop at that point to get his sense?

Answer: So, here’s the, I’m sorry, this is not a simple story, so if you need to cut a lot of it out, that’s fine with me. I was raised Roman Catholic and had been an inactive Roman Catholic since my early teenage years, so I was never confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church. So, when my interest in studying scripture in theology and thinking about attending ETS, at that point, I was thought about non-denominational Christian-attending college chaplaincy service at both RIC [Rhodes Island College] and Brown, when [the Rev.] Sheldon Flory was the Episcopal Church chaplain and was involved in both those chaplaincies. And I felt at home in the Episcopal Church. I knew I could not go back to being a Roman Catholic, regardless of the whole priesthood question or anything else. I just never could get past papal infallibility. I’m sorry, I made a bad Catholic. I made a good Episcopalian. I mean, hopefully I’ve always been a good Christian, but I made a bad little Catholic.

So, I decided to commit to the Episcopal Church. So, Bishop [Frederick] Belden confirmed me, and part of talking with him about his confirming me, yes, we talked about my going to seminary, and I told him what I just told you: that I believe it’s a path I should embark on, and I just trust that I will end up being where God wants me to be. And I feel that today. And he was very supportive. Bishop Belden was 100 percent in favor of the ordination of women. He was wonderful to me. I can’t say one bad word about the man. I mean, he was just absolutely, absolutely wonderful to me, caring, supportive, understanding. One of the biggest tragedies, both in my personal life and in my ordination journey, was that he died so young.

Question: Now, when you …. go ahead.

Answer: No, no. You can go ahead with the next question. I can go on forever. I’m a preacher. I don’t stop talking.

Question: So, now let’s fast forward a couple of years and go to September of 1976, when General Convention finally approved the ordination of women to the priesthood and to the episcopate. Did that change anything for you? You were still in seminary.

Answer: I was still in seminary. I was in my senior year. Things were a little different. The church was experimenting with some things in those days in terms of the ordination, like a person could go to seminary without being approved for postulancy, because you always had to be a postulant at first before you went to seminary but that was not in effect. So, I had, at that point, I had met with the Commission on Ministry and the bishop, because you always have to check in with your bishop a few times. I had started what then was required: my diocesan canonical exams. They had a pretty strict list of courses that you had to take before you could take the diocesan exams, and you started taking those in your middler year. So, I guess in the spring would’ve been the spring of ’76, I started taking my, it may have been December ’75, I don’t remember. It doesn’t matter. So I had already started taking my canonical exams. There wasn’t an official postulancy then, or if there was, I had already been given it. So in that sense, nothing changed in terms of my going through the process. When I met with the Standing Committee, I guess it was January or February of ’77, I was approved for ordination to the transitional diaconate. So, when I graduated, I had been approved for ordination. I was ordained in August to the diaconate.

Here’s an interesting piece always to me […] the vast majority of diocese, including both Rhode Island and Pennsylvania — oh, I’ve got to back up and tell you that story — required a year in the diaconate. Rhode Island had shortened it to six months, but nobody told me, But it was okay. I’m fine with it, but I’m fine because I embraced the diaconate and it was good for me. But anyway, technically I would’ve been eligible to be ordained to the priesthood in the summer of ’78, late spring of ’78. I wanted Bishop Belden to ordain me, and he said, “The only time I can come down, if you want to wait, would be the first weekend of October on my way to the (I think he said) the House of Bishops meeting.” He says, “Otherwise, I will approve your ordination, but physically have [Pennsylvania] Bishop [Lyman] Ogilby do it.” Which means I’m still resident in Rhode Island. I’m still under Bishop Belden’s authority. But the physical hands that were put on my head would’ve been Bishop Ogilby. And I said, “Bishop Belden, we’ve gone through this journey.” Now, at that point, what was it, five years […] “I really, really, really want you to be the one to ordained me.” So we waited till October 1st. I mean, what the heck’s a few months in the scheme of God’s universe?

When I was ordained, Bishop Belden was quite honest with me. He said, “Jo-Ann, I just do not see a parish that will accept the woman as a curate at this point in time.” [The Rev.] Pat Smith was the deacon at St. David’s on the Hill. That would’ve been a parish that would’ve accepted me, but they already had Pat Smith. The other parishes that would’ve accepted me couldn’t afford an assistant. And they were very few and far between. So Bishop Belden said to me, “You have my blessing wherever you can find a job.” And as it happened, I found a position in St. Peter’s Church, Glenside, Pennsylvania. And obviously Geralyn Wolf was in the diocese, so our friendship just continued there.

And I served Pennsylvania for a while, then took a parish in New Hampshire. I was trying to get a little closer to home because my whole family at that point was in Rhode Island.

And when I was in New Hampshire, hoping that my next move could be back to Rhode Island, Bishop Belden died. And they had an interim bishop, and then Bishop [George] Hunt came on. He really didn’t know me. He didn’t have his feet under him yet. The diocese was still not very open to women. And I do not come from a wealthy family. I had to be self-supporting. And Bishop Ogilby offered me a church in Pennsylvania. So, I ended up going back to Pennsylvania for a number of years, even though I really wanted to come back to Rhode Island at that point. But anyway, it is what it is.

Question: Let me interrupt for one second. So, the shape of your ministry has been pretty much all parochial ministry, all parish work?

Answer: Interesting you should say that. Yes and no. Yes. I mean, I have not had a college chaplaincy or a prison chaplaincy. The only break I had at one point, I was working by choice part-time in a parish, actually, it was St. Paul’s, Elkins Park, Pennsylvania, and I was also working as a psychiatric technician [at an] inpatient facility, psychiatric hospital. I won’t go into the details of why. It was just something I really wanted to do. I wanted the experience. I loved it. I mean, the hours are horrible. The pay was horrible. But I learned so much. I learned a lot about caring for people or being sensitive to people suffering from mental illness. But one of the real practical things it did for me is to clearly delineate the role and responsibility of a pastor and the role and responsibility of a counselor.

And I have always been clear with people, because a lot of people come saying, “Oh, I want spiritual direction.” But what they really need is some kind of therapy or support. I’ll always say to them, “If we talk and you feel this is something you need, I will recommend someone to you.” And I always had a list of people I trusted, counselors, therapists, psychiatrists. I said, “But I am your pastor. And the questions I’m going to ask you are questions like, where is God for you in all this? Or what can you do to better experience God’s presence, God’s love, God’s comfort, whatever’s needed?” I did not do counseling. I was not qualified to be a counselor. I knew enough to know I’m not a counselor. I don’t want to be a counselor. I mean, I worked in the psychiatric hospital to understand. I like learning. I’m one of these people that I’ll take a course in anything, just to kind of expose myself to it and learn something about it so I can understand other people and what they may say or what they may be talking about. And anyway, it was just one of those kind of crazy midlife things that you do. Oh, I’d love to know more about this stuff.

Question: Now, how did you work your way back to Rhode Island? Because you did come back to Rhode Island, correct?

Answer:  Yes. I came back to be the rector of Redeemer on Hope Street in Providence. When I decided to leave the combo part-time parish [and] psychiatric hospital period in my life, I applied for a parish, very, very, very nice parish, huge parish down in Maple Glen, Pennsylvania, as the associate rector, and sort of saw that as a transition to coming back to Rhode Island. At that point, for a whole lot of family reasons, I really, really wanted to come back. And then I missed home. This is home. I was born and raised here. I always say I have quahog juice for blood, all about Rhode Island. Do you know all about Rhode Island quahog?

Question:  No.

[…]

Answer: It’s basically a hard-shell clam. I mean, I grew up clamming on the shores of Narragansett Bay. … My mother was aging, a couple of my brothers and sisters had moved away and were not available for her support, and I missed home. I was getting old. I was in my late forties, wanted to come home. So, while I was in Maple Glen as the associate rector, I kept, started keeping my eyes open in terms of what was available in Rhode Island and what I meant like, and then Redeemer came open, and they decided to call me.

Question: And so, this would’ve been in what year, Jo-Ann?

Answer:  1993.

Question: Can you say anything about being the female rector of Redeemer?

Answer: Well, they loved me. I loved them. At that point, there were so many female rectors. [The Rev.] Pat Smith was the first female rector in Rhode Island. […] There were a number of women who were rectors in the diocese and in various other capacities in the diocese, too. So, at that point, the diocese had well accepted it. Of course, [Bishop] George Hunt was a serious advocate of women in the priesthood, and he really encouraged women to come here and encouraged parishes to at least interview them. And usually if the parish interviewed a woman, they seriously considered them. So yeah, it was all old news at that point.

Question: And then when did you retire?

Answer: I retired May 1st, 2012. It was just after my 20th Easter. It was a little over 19 years, but it was my 20th Easter. … I retired for health reasons.

Question: Looking back now, 50 years later …

Answer: Oh, I got to go back and remember again?

Question: No, this is a forward-thinking question. What do you think the lessons are for the church, if any, for the next 50 years after all this major change that went on led, probably led by women’s ordination, but there were so many other issues. What do you think the lessons are for the next 50 years for the church?

Answer: Never count God out. If we believe seriously that God acts through the Holy Spirit, then we can’t put a pair of handcuffs on the Holy Spirit. I think something needs to be tested. I think it needs to be sound. I think it needs to be well considered. I’m talking about major changes, obviously, but I don’t think an idea should get an immediate “No.” I mean, I don’t believe that intellectually. I don’t believe that spiritually. I don’t believe it practically. No, no. I say it kiddingly, but I’m serious. I mean, you look at something and you say, “Oh, I’ll never be able to clean that closet out.” And it’s like, no. Take one thing out. Take two things, and before you know it’s done. You never say no.

Question: Right, right. That’s great. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that when you thought about having this conversation […] that you wanted to be sure to say?

Answer: Good question. I’m just looking at some things I jotted down, but I think we pretty much covered what I wanted to say. Thank you. No, I can’t think of it. In fact, I feel like I’ve bent your ear for, oh, has it only been a half hour?

Interviewer: It’s only been a half hour. We haven’t even hit the half hour mark. We’re almost there. So no, no, no. I’ve been enjoying all of these conversations.

Answer: I’m sure you have. I’m sure the stories, the stories are plentiful. No, and, I was going to say is unfortunately because of my health […] I have not been able to attend in person the renewal [of] ordination vows that the bishop has every year. But every now and then, I go back and reread the ordination vows, both for a deacon and a priest because, in the Episcopal Church or in the Christian church, ordination is not sequential. It’s cumulative. If you are ordained a deacon, you’re always a deacon. If you’re ordained a priest, you’re always a priest. If you’re ordained a bishop, you’re always a bishop. You’re always all. One doesn’t replace the other, one incorporates the other. So, I obviously go back and reread them And, at an ordination service, the bishop reads this litany of, and I use this word intentionally, responsibilities that a deacon, a priest, or a bishop would have as a deacon, a priest, or a bishop. And the final thing that the bishop will ask is, do you believe you are so called to this ministry? And you know what? Bottom line — called by God and the church, both God and the church to the life and work of this ministry — and bottom line is, to me, that’s the only question that ever really mattered.

Interviewer: I think that’s a great place to stop, Jo-Ann.